Parliamentary Assembly

Mr Rõivas, Prime Minister of Estonia

First of all, let me say that the best thing we can do is make sure that all of our countries are actually in accordance with the agreements that we make here. If we look at the Estonian experience, we see that the vast majority of international agreements, including the conventions, have been beneficial for my country. These conventions are not made by anyone else, or done for the rapporteurs here in Strasbourg; we understand that we need to make them in order to have a better society. There needs to be commitment to such agreements by all of us.

Mr Rõivas, Prime Minister of Estonia

Let me start by saying that freedom of movement in Europe has made all of our countries more prosperous in many ways, and not just in the fiscal sense of being prosperous. Digital is one of the areas where there should not be any State borders. We know that, in practice, it is still not fully possible to provide digital services from my country to your country. There still exist some kinds of legal barriers, which I believe are actually keeping us from mutual development, and I am a strong believer that abolishing those virtual borders between our countries will give us the opportunity to provide cross-border services for our citizens. That might extend to public services and it will definitely extend to all kinds of private services, including telecommunication, banking and so on. As we well know, digital is the easiest way to go global and our challenge as legislators and decision makers is to make sure that we do not create virtual wars between our countries, which would prevent us from experiencing these kinds of developments.

Mr Rõivas, Prime Minister of Estonia

First of all, as there are countries involved in war in Europe, we cannot speak about business as usual, or a secure environment, anywhere in Europe. That is the most important aspect. Estonia, just like Denmark, is a NATO country and of course the direct military threat against NATO is not very big – let me put it that way. However, in order to keep it like that, it is very important to demonstrate that NATO, in addition to the rock-solid agreements, the treaty and Articles 4 and 5, also has the capabilities to react if necessary. In that respect, it is very important not only to increase the presence of allied forces on the eastern flank of NATO but to have exercises, so that we really have an interoperable force and so that we can really demonstrate that nobody should even think of picking a fight with NATO, which in essence, of course, is an organisation of defence; that must be made very clear.

Having the presence of allied forces in several NATO territories should not be provoking in any way to anyone who has peaceful intentions. Remember that many decades ago the United States became a guarantor of European security by bringing some of its forces to Europe, for example in Germany – the biggest contingent of American forces in Europe today is still in Germany. I do not think that anybody here believes that that is provoking anyone in any way. I think that the same applies to all the other countries, including those that are closest to the most aggressive country in Europe currently.

Mr Rõivas, Prime Minister of Estonia

That is a very important question, because the more digital a society becomes and the more Internet freedoms and online services it has, the more important it is to deal with the threats. In a way, becoming more digital leaves us more open to digital threats. The right thing to do is not to stop becoming more digital, but to realise what the threats are and to deal with them. I know of European governments that have hesitated to go digital because of the risks. The Estonian experience shows the opposite to be true; you can become a very digital country, but you need to evaluate the risks and be ready to fight them. Estonia was the first country in the world to experience a full-scale cyber-attack, back in spring 2007. The positive point is that Estonia was able to defend itself. Following that experience, we created the NATO centre of excellence for cyber-security in Tallinn, and many of the countries represented here are also represented there – it is actually bigger than all the NATO countries. That has made us safer and better prepared for potential risks in future. My message is clear: Internet freedom and going digital is an opportunity and we should not hesitate because of the risks but deal with them.

Mr Rõivas, Prime Minister of Estonia

The best weapon against propaganda is not anti-propaganda, but free media. If you look at the media sphere in the Russian language, you will see that in most of our countries it is very difficult to find a good-quality channel that is free and is not sending messages that come directly from the Kremlin. In Estonia we give finance to channels that are free to publish local news in the Russian language, but we give them no content or directions. As with Estonian public broadcasting, and as with the BBC, the government cannot give any content, but we do give finance so that they are ready to act as journalists in a free media context.

With regard to Mr Steinmeier’s comment, I think that in many countries it was emphasised a lot, and perhaps too much. I do not think that there should be any doubt that Germany is very much committing to the security of NATO, including of our part of NATO. My position is that weakness is a much greater provocation than strength. If we look at what Russia is doing, with its constant large-scale military exercises, we see that the biggest provocation would be to stand still and never exercise together. I also think that having different countries exercise together in that way is very practical, because we can see how the interoperability actually works. It shows that we are ready to defend all of NATO. I believe that the more exercises we have, the more certain we can be that nobody will ever try to challenge our unity and strength.

Mr Rõivas, Prime Minister of Estonia

First, it is clear that the sanctions that Russia has imposed on Europe have a price. The security of Europe also has a price. But freedom is priceless. Ukraine, as a European country, deserves to be a free, democratic State whose people decide what it should do just as much as all the other countries represented here. It would be immoral to say that we value 1% or 0.5% of GDP more than the freedom of one of our countries. Estonia has first-hand knowledge of what it is like to lose our freedom. It took us 50 years to become a free and democratic country once more. We will never close our eyes when another European country is threatened with losing its freedom. Russian sanctions probably cost us more than they do many other countries, because we are physically quite close to the Russian market, but Russia does not want the good-quality food produced by Estonian farmers; that is felt, and the farmers are angry. But I am certain that the knowledge that we were doing nothing about an ongoing war in Europe would be much costlier and would have a much greater long-term effect on our society.

Secondly, the 2014 change in the law means that a child in Estonia born to parents who do not have Estonian citizenship will by default become an Estonian citizen. The father and mother can say that they do not want that and choose that the child does not become an Estonian citizen. Before that, the default position was that such children needed to apply for Estonian citizenship; if they applied they got it. In general, getting Estonian citizenship is rather easy. Applicants need to pass a language exam and an exam testing basic knowledge of our constitution and how our society works.

The third question was about the Russian delegation to the Council of Europe. I believe that you, here in this Assembly, are the decision makers on that matter. As I understand it, you have made very clear the conditions for the return of the Russian delegation with full rights. As a prime minister, I cannot intervene in what parliamentarians do. That applies in my own country, as well. Whenever a parliament asks for advice on what it should do I always say that it is up to that parliament, which is always the supreme power. I fully understand why the decision on the Russian delegation was taken and believe that, very much like the European Union sanctions, it is a values-based decision that the Parliamentary Assembly has every legitimate reason to have taken.

Mr Rõivas, Prime Minister of Estonia

To answer first the question from the Moldovan delegate, it is very difficult for me to say what the key to progress is in all those frozen conflicts. But we should certainly stay united, keep up pressure and continue with dialogue so that we keep sending the message that intervening in other countries’ sovereign business is not the way to act in 21st century Europe.

I strongly believe that in 21st century Europe there should be no spheres of interest. All the countries you mentioned, including Moldova, have every right to choose democratically whether they take the path of becoming European Union members or take any other path. It is fundamentally wrong for any other country, big or small, so say, “No, that it not your decision. We will take it for you.” That is basically what has happened in several countries, and that is wrong.

On the second question, we have had digital voting since 2005. The important fact to recognise is that having a secure digital identification system is at the core of digital voting. Many European countries have ID cards that can be used digitally. The worry is that most do not use those cards digitally. In Estonia we have used a digital identification system with a cryptographic key since the year 2000. That has made it possible for all services to be available online, because we can know for sure that the virtual person at the other end of the Internet connection is the actual person. Digital identification systems are key. Secondly, with any elections, secrecy and the freedom to make your own choice are also key. Our system is very much like that for voting in embassies using an envelope system. Let us say a Spanish citizen living in Strasbourg wants to vote in a Spanish election. They can vote in the embassy using the envelope system. In Estonia, we used to do things that way. The e-voting system is very similar, but as it is digital it is much more convenient.

Over the past 11 years, from the very beginning, the system has been audited by international auditors to make sure that it is strong enough not to be attacked. So far, there has not been a successful attack, and there have been no serious attempts to falsify anything. But there have to be safeguards. In theory, should there be a serious attack on the Estonian system, we could cancel e-voting and people could go to polling booths to vote on election day. We need to have such a plan B, but it is great that we have not needed to use it during the past 11 years. In the last parliamentary elections, every third person voted by using the Internet. It is interesting that both old and young people in Estonia use digital identification. It is needed for everything – for social security, for banking – and once people use it for other things, it is much easier for them to use it to vote. That is especially true for old people living in the countryside and for people living abroad. In the elections, there were votes from 116 countries where Estonian citizens are living. I believe that many of the Estonian civil servants working in Strasbourg voted using their digital identification system, not the envelope system in the embassy, so it made participating in democracy easier for them as well.

On the question about two countries becoming members of the Council of Europe, it is clear that one of them – Kosovo – has not, if I remember correctly, yet applied for membership, but if it does so, its application can be processed by the appropriate body. As for Belarus, I know that the death penalty question still needs to be dealt with properly. I believe both countries know what to do to apply for membership.

Mr Rõivas, Prime Minister of Estonia

Thank you for your questions. The first is perhaps the easiest to answer. We should not tolerate violations of human rights in any of our member States. It is self-evident that we should all lead the way by showing an example.

The second question was about the difference between the progress of Moldova and that of Estonia. I am in no position to tell any other country what to do, and can only speak from Estonia’s experience about what has been helpful in making progress. The determined approach to the reform of society since we first regained our independence has clearly been key. We established the rule of law and moved as far as possible from the planned economy, which we all knew did not work in the Soviet Union. There are still a couple of countries, such as Cuba, that are experimenting with a planned economy, but it does not work. Our approach was to move our system as far away as possible from it by bringing in a market economy, which is the best economic model.

We also pursued membership of various international organisations. Joining the European Union was the hardest task because so many criteria had to be met. Looking in the rear-view mirror, we can see that meeting the vast majority of the criteria we had to meet to become a member of the European Union was actually useful for us. As we keep telling our people – this is the best example of something I can share – we did not do so for Brussels, even though doing so was obligatory if we were to become a member, but for ourselves, and that has proved beneficial for us. In historical perspective, another difference was that the departure of the occupying military power – the Russian military left Estonia back in 1994 – was also very helpful.

The third question was about refugees. Estonia is fully committed to fulfilling our part under the agreement made in the European Council, which decided that all countries would participate in the relocation and redistribution mechanism. I think that all countries should respect that commitment, which we reached voluntarily, and that it is our duty to do so. The start was slower than expected because of technical difficulties, but I am glad to say that our work with the Greek authorities is now much more effective – we are very grateful to the Greek authorities for working so closely with us on this matter – and the pace has now picked up. I believe that the same approach should be taken by all the countries that have committed to the relocation and redistribution programme. From the Estonian perspective, we have improved the legal situation in relation to relocation from Turkey. Previously, as we had no experience of that, there were some legal obstacles, but we have now more or less overcome them and are ready to help Turkey as much as we can.

Mr Rõivas, Prime Minister of Estonia

The biggest thing that we can achieve with ICT is to make our public services and public registers more transparent. Transparency is one of the key words in promoting efficiency and in providing the services where you are effective as a government. There is a saying that you cannot bribe a computer. That is an essential saying in a way, because once you make services digital in a very transparent way there is much less room for corruption and much more room for people to see for themselves how things work and for them to be certain that things are working in the most effective way possible.

Mr Rõivas, Prime Minister of Estonia

The best solution is almost always to stick to what we have agreed. As we discussed in relation to other issues, if resolutions are taken and agreements are made we should work according to them. It is not a magic solution, but sticking to the agreements that we have made is definitely useful.

Of course, we would all like the conflicts to be solved. One thing that we as parliamentarians from very different countries can do is keep them on our agenda until they are solved, because parliamentarians have something very powerful: a public platform from which to speak about issues. All of you as parliamentarians, in my humble opinion, can make the best use of that platform and keep the important conflicts on your agendas, just as I have while addressing you here. Thank you.